Lemon Tree! HELP!

[gary17]

Hi,


I have had this lemon tree for about 4 years now, and it has been very happy for the majority of its time. I live in London, and we've had a relatively hard frost compared to what we usually have, and this lemon tree is in the conservatory, and I think it has suffered from the frost.



It has lost 75% of its leaves over the past 3 weeks, and the remaining ones are beginning to discolour, and go limp. The tree is watered, and being fed with a tomatoe feed. I am beginning to worry about it, and I would greatly appreciate any advice on how to help it recover.



I have posted 2 pictures of it on the web, http://www.geocities.com/garethchan888/DSCN2458.JPG and http://www.geocities.com/garethchan888/DSCN2459.JPG



Thanks



Gareth

[Margaret]

I am no expert - there are some very knowledgable ones who contribute to this site and who will doubtless answer your post - but I had a similiar problem with a potted orange tree. It may have been just luck or I may have done the correct thing, but I put it into a garden room without heat and did not feed or water it for a month. It has now recovered although it lost a couple of little branches. It is now outside undercover and against a south facing white painted wall where it seems to be very happy.
I take it that you are in England and not southern Ontario?
Over to the experts.
Margaret

[Millet]

Gareth, First how long a period of time was the tree subject to temperatures below 32F (0C)? The first symptoms of a citrus tree being subject to freezing temperatures is leaves that go limp and fall from the tree. This, however, does not mean that the tree is dead. As long as the cambium layer remains green the tree is alive, and has a good chance of recovery. What ever you do,do not discard the tree. Reduce watering, as the tree has no leave to transpire water, but do not let the growing medium become completely dry. I would not fertilize the tree during this time. Watch the branches for any sign of new foilage developing. The critical item is the length of time and how low the temperature dropped. As the tree was inside a conservatory I believe it has a beter than 50/50 chance to recover. - Millet

[mr.shep]

Was this tree grown outdoors beforehand and
is now in the conservatory or was it in the
conservatory the whole time? How much
water have you been giving this tree and what
is your drainage like. Is the water moving
though the soil fast, moderately so or real
slow? I am assuming this tree has its own
pot, was the water caught in a tray and
allowed to stay in the tray for any length of
time or was the water able to drain free?
What is your soil medium for this Lemon?
Was the Tomato food in the form of a liquid
or was it a granular fertilizer? How much
have you been applying and how often do
you fertilize this tree? Before the cold snap
hit, did you have much yellowing in the leaves
of the type seen in these photos and did you
see any noticeable wilting to the leaves?

Jim

[drichard12]

Jim..Your posting is VERY good, I would like to know the type of lemon that gary17 has.

gary17.. if you know the type of Lemon please post it along with what Jim is asking. Some members of the lemon family are forgiving.

Myers is not ( personal ) very forgiving ... Dale

[Junglekeeper]

Originally Posted by drichard12

...I would like to know the type of lemon that gary17 has.

I'm curious to know what type of lemon this is too. I thought all lemon leaves have very narrow, nearly wingless petioles which is not the case with this tree.

[Millet]

Hi Junglekeeper, from the shape of the fruit and the wide winged petiole, it looks like a Ichang Lemon. I have three Ichang trees, and some of the fruit can get almost as large as a smaller grapefruit. - Millet

[Junglekeeper]

Thanks for the info, Millet. I didn't see any fruit in the photos. I'll have to have a closer look at them. Is the speckled, sandpaper-like bark in the first photo typical of the Ichang?

[Millet]

Junglekeeper, on second look, there is no fruit, I must be thinking of Stan McKenzie's picture. Anyway, the leaf looks exactly like an Ichang. As people rarely ever come back on this forum with additional information requested by the responders, or even to say thanks, we might never know. However the Ichang Lemon has a bi-leaf with a wide petiole that looks exactly like the one in gray17's picture. - Millet

[mr.shep]

Years ago there was a Eureka clone that could produce
this same type bi-leaf. Seen more prominently when
grafted onto citrangequat rootstock. The bi-leaf is more
likely seen on some of the late Spring new growth and
again in the Fall new growth. Yes, the Ichang does have
the same bi-leaf as gary17's plant.

Jim

[Junglekeeper]

After reviewing some documents I realized my mistake was taking 'lemon' too literally. The Ichang lemon, Citrus ichangensis, is not a true lemon but is a member of the subgenus Papeda, which also includes Kaffir lime. Members of this group have inedible fruits that contain an acrid oil.

But then there's Jim's note of the Eureka clone. Generalizations of leaf morphology can be tricky!

[drichard12]

JungleKeeper. The bi-leaf is also found on the yuzu/citrus junos similarities between the yuzu and the Ichang appear to be the same as in gary17's photos.

Thus supporting Jims posting "Generalizations of leaf morphology can be tricky!" ..Dale

[Millet]

Junglekeeper, the Ichang is eatable. When sugar is added to the juice it makes a fairly good lemon aid, good on fish and poultry, and Ichang also makes great "lemon" pie. I also have recently rooted 4 or 5 cuttings from the mother tree. In a couple months they will be strong enough to ship. If anyone would like an Ichang (free) let me know. - Millet

[Junglekeeper]

Millet, I'd love to add an Ichang to my collection. Unfortunately there's the border which may as well be a wall when it comes to live plant material.

[mr.shep]

So this note is not completely off topic let
me advise that if Gary's Lemon is still alive
that he should change the soil for this tree
as soon as possible.

Millet, what is the flavor of your Ichang like?
How does the odor of the juice compare to
a Eureka, Lisbon and a Ponderosa? I did not
mention Meyer as it has a sweeter smell when
juiced. Years ago we worked on a Chinese
Citrus that we felt was a natural hybrid that
had some Citron parentage. Just having some
thoughts creep back to me, now that I am no
longer thinking Maples. If you have any of
the cuttings still available perhaps we can
work out something. If not maybe next year.

Jim

[Junglekeeper]

Could it be that the quality of the Ichang fruit is more dependent on the growing conditions/environment than other citrus? The collector at Home Citrus Growers had a totally different experience with his Ichang. Or are there different selections of this tree? If so, how can one tell which is which?

[mr.shep]

Sometimes with Citrus we overlook things, try to
tie in others by lumping and then we get some
fruit every now and then to come in that we do
not fully understand. I believe the information
in the Citrus ichangensis as mentioned in the
link is accurate which is one of the reasons we
felt that the Ichang we had was not really a Lemon
at all but was a Citron variant. Later on people
called the Ichang an Ichang Lemon but we didn't.
Okay, so I've opened up the revolving door a
little with a friends help. From a collectors
standpoint a lot depends on who they got their
wood or plant from. What I want to know is
who did the source get their plant or wood from
and then where did their source get their wood
or plant from as I want to know did the original
plant come from wood obtained from the University
of California at Riverside or not. In some cases I
may know who the UCR got their plant from. I
know that UCR is calling the Ichang a Lemon
which is okay but I also saw a photo of the juice
and it reminded me of something I've seen in the
past but I cannot use my senses of smell or taste
to confirm my suspicions.

We can have some real fun with the Chinese
Citrus as even the Yuzu can be more than one
type of fruit. I first learned it to be like a
Grapefruit but more tart. The color of the
skin in cool weather along with the wrinkled
skin gives rise to a notion that there may be
some Citron blood in the Yuzu. Of course I
cannot prove any of this and I am thinking
neither can anyone else, so we tend to go
with what we've got and in the case of the
Ichang it is perfectly okay to call it a hybrid
like the link suggests. It just so happens if
the Ichang is the same plant I am familiar
with then I can attest that we also had a
feeling that it was a hybrid several years
ago, back in the 80's.

Jim

[Millet]

Mr.Shep and Junglekeeper, the Ichang Lemon is a Ichang papeda crossed with a pummelo (Citrus Ichangensis X Citrus Maxima). It originated in China, where they call it Shangjuan, meaning "Fragrant Ball." Unlike hybrids between the trifoliate orange and other citrus, Ichang papeda (Citrus Inchangensis) hybrids tend to have a better balance of the two parents. When Ichang papeda is crossed with citrus of higher flavor, fruit quality greatly improves. For example, the Yuzu, which is an Ichang papeda and mandarin cross, has a sour but not bitter fruit that make a very acceptable lemon substitute. Second generation hybrids have even better fruit, some producing fruit of tangerine quality with little loss of cold hardiness. The Ichang Lemon produces large, bumpy, seedy, yellow grapefruit like fruits, which can be used like lemons. The fruit is extremely juicy with each one producing as much as a half cup of juice. When over ripe, it tastes like a grapefruit and is quite edible with sugar. The fruit flavor could be called a sour grapefruit, with some off flavors and of fair quality. However, it would be classified and dessert, cooking and juice. When cut open it has a typical citrus clean type of smell. Jim I have four rooted cuttings that are 3 or 4 inchs tall. You would be most welcome to one if you would care to grow it on. You have my E-mail address just drop me a line. - Take care. Millet

[Junglekeeper]

There is apparently some confusion with the names here. According to Sunset's Citrus and RHS's Horticultural Database, Ichang Lemon and Ichang Papeda are one and the same. This is in contrast to The Citrus Industry which says they are different as explained by Millet. Since the "Bible" commands much respect I'll go with their version. I guess nothing can be taken for granted with the lesser known citrus varieties - something to keep in mind when sizing up a potential purchase. As Jim says, be sure to ask about the source of a tree or wood.

[mr.shep]

Sometimes we do better when we do not read the books
as then we have to think Citrus in order to analyze a plant
that came into us for research. Okay, we thought in terms
of Citron for some of the plants to come in from China
by way of Japan. It was hard then and I bet still is to get
a straight answer on what is what and how it came about.
I am not going to go into other plants from China in which
we were told one thing that just did not add up to us. I'll
leave the analytical breakdown of these things to UC
Riverside, Texas A&M, University of Florida and perhaps
UC Davis as well. The scientific data and interpretation
of the data is better coming from them than from a few
of us field station grunts of years past.

The book you guys call a Bible I have not read and I have
my own reasons for not wanting to read various books on
Citrus. Yes, that makes me suspect but I am a hands on
guy that has been around some of these plants for a while.
There are times I don't want to know what someone in a
lab or an educator has to say as they cannot see and in
some cases have not seen in objective fashion how these
plants behave in the field (grove) like some if us technically
challenged people are more apt to have seen. Our job is to
do the work that most people have refrained from doing
themselves and that is to grow these plants under duress,
in conditions that the plant will balk at just so we can help
others have a better idea as to what they are up against when
they decide to grow these plants. How it used to be is that
the colleges used to leave us growing end research people
alone to do what we wanted to experiment with. In today's
world of funding based on telling someone what they want
to know to ensure more funding dollars us guys in left field
have been put out to pasture so to speak as we learned much
more about the plant and how to grow it when our experiments
ended in failure and there is no funding in that any more. So,
we have the tale of two different philosophies at work here,
the educational aspect and the growing one and I'll choose
the growing end any day as we are the guys that have to grow
the plant or perish whereas other people can blame us for
their oversight later and still have a job.

When we felt that a particular Citrus to come into us for
evaluation was a hybrid, you could pretty well take it to
the bank that it was. Even the colleges in the olden days
deferred to us in such matters. We did not have to know
which parents the plant may have had as we left that to
others to get the straight scoop about if they could.
With much of the Citrus from Asia we will have problems
in trying to separate out genus and species from actual
plants grown in a variety of locations. What may not be
seen in Japan, Florida and even Brazil may be seen here
in regards to percentage sugar, degree of pulp and skin
color in the fruit.

I read an article a couple of days ago that suggests that a
Valencia with seedless fruit due to parthenocarpy had
sweeter fruit than a Valencia will that had its flowers bee
pollinated instead. My first question was which clone
of Valencia are we talking about and where was it grown?
A case in point is that one clone of Valencia can get much
sweeter grown here than it may and in some cases will
when grown in Texas and Florida. A minor point this is
not. When people write about parthenocarpy I think it does
matter where the tests were conducted and what percentage
of the crop was bee pollinated and what percentage of the
picked fruit came about due to parthenocarpy. In my mind
to say that it is rampant in an orchard is really stretching it
as with a slight partehnocarpic Washington Navel, regardless
of which clone grown, I doubt too many growers will even
attempt to rely on this phenomenon occurring. Even with
a medium parthenocarpic Orlando Tangelo crop I really
doubt that people will not still use bees for pollination.
Sometimes our educators and our research affiliate
educators lead us to believe that we can succeed in
producing a crop using parthenocarpy as our means to do
it but from the growing end aspect it is foolish to rely on it.
As in the case of Pistachios we can have parthenocarpy take
place in our crop but those hulls will have no nuts in them.
That is what we surely do not want if we are growing the crop
for production purposes. The same scenario can be applied
to Pecans, Almonds and Walnuts and we call these kernel less
hulls due to incomplete fertilization (no pollination), in this
particular case due to parthenocarpy instead, blanks. What
I am saying Junglekeeper is that for Citrus aside from a
strongly parthenocarpic Citrus such as a Tahiti Lime we
might be better served to think in terms that for certain
researchers the process has meaning but to us growing
the plant the whole process of parthenocarpy has little or
not meaning at all. This may not be true for indoor growing
culture however as then we can get a Lemon or two on a
tree in which we had no ability to utilize bee activity but
for most people growing these plants in their homes some
fruit is a whole lot better than none. Still, I’d put the trees
outdoors when the temperatures permit, let the tree set
fruit and then bring them indoors. For you in your home
you may have to rely on parthenocarpy and may have
to use a plant hormone powder or spray to initiate flowering
but you should get some fruit as a result of this. Now, you
later know when parthenocarpy becomes real important as
opposed to having much less meaning outdoors for most
Citrus and in some cases even when grown in a greenhouse.
You may have to “bank” on this process happening and it
should work for you where you are there..

Jim